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Home arrow Bible Based Cults & Isms arrow The Twelve Tribes aka Messianic Communities arrow Apostolic Workers' Meeting 1- Mary Wiseman's Death

Apostolic Workers' Meeting 1- Mary Wiseman's Death

Body Meeting - August 26, 1990 "Mary Wiseman's Death"

These notes (and those of September 2, 1990) are the results of a meeting of the "Body" (the available gathered membership of Messianic Communities) after the death of Mary Wiseman.  The purpose of the meeting was to "discern" the cause of Mary's death.  Why had God allowed this young woman, who was the wife of the second-in-command (Hakam), to die at such a young age, and in such a painful, lingering way?  Why had God not heard the prayers of the membership? Particularly interesting are the comments of Luke (Mary's oldest boy) and another young man named John Mark that begin on Page 9.  It is also instructive to read the comments of Hushai on page 8 as he describes Mary Wiseman.  These comments are particularly significant when compared with what was being said at the Body Meeting of September 2, 1990.

Different members of the Communities speak "what is on their hearts."  Elbert Eugene Spriggs (Yoneq), the self professed "apostle" of the group, begins the meeting with a lengthy teaching on "Faith."  The misspellings, punctuation and grammatical errors are all as they appeared in the hand written notes of the meeting. 

Evil Spirit says "If not for the Sabbath I could make money!" Caused Isaiah to go into captivity.  If you're outside of your tribal area you may be able to do something but in our tribal area we are not going to do it.

Rose's Notes

Aug. 26, 1990 Body meeting FAITH Island Pond

Yoneq: There are going to be people who die in our midst.  We need to know why they die.  Many unanswered questions in our hearts.  When people die, the need to come together and try to judge why they died.  After they die we remember many things good and bad.  Some things we remember after they died should have been told to them before they died.  In the body is all wisdom, all faith and all love.  If we were thirsty when we came to our Master Yashua we'd have streams of living waters flow from us.  The Spirit knows all things and hears all things - has all knowledge, power and faith in those streams.  If we're not eating and drinking His body and blood we'll not have this.  Too many unsolved mysteries - we'll go on in pretended faith, pretended knowledge.  If any truth is to be known about Mary in our midst and those who've died, we need to come to rest in why He took their lives.

Basic Epistles - portions

James 5:14 Absolute word of the living God.  We do not believe James is an epistle of straw not inspired as Martin Luther said.  It's absolute truth.  We can have confidence in it.  James 5:13

We must defend the word tonight.  We cannot let the word go as if it had no power or else we'll see our faith dwindle before our eyes.  All those baptised by John the baptist justified God.  We want to justify His word.  His word became flesh.  It's in us.  People ought to be able to come to us and receive life flowing from us as they did Him.  No one has ever received streams of water from Yashua unless they were thirsty, parched, in need of water sense of dryness.  No one else has need of water.  Our water supply comes from Him.  Those who are eating and drinking His body and blood daily are in unity.  Those not are carnal, factious and divisions among them.

If we consider James the word of God.

Why did not or would not God heal Mary?  There's an answer to that.  We must endeavor to understand and answer this.  May not be till judgement.  According to every word spoken by them openly or in secret - the motives of the heart.  James 5:14-15 is the prayer of faith.  If God is not willing to heal the sick person due to hidden sin or not confessed sin or not judged then the elders cannot pray a prayer of faith.  They cannot assume that God hears them.

I John 5   If God is not willing to heal them - life threatening - sickness - (like when you know you're going to die spiritually can you call for Yashua to save them - can't call without this) due to hidden or unconfessed sin.  They can't pray in faith even though they go trough the motions.  Faith is a gift from God.  He is not a God of confusion.  They can't assume God hears them no more than a person can confess Yashua is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.  So the prayer must be offered up in faith.  I John 5: 13-14 .

I write these to you so you may know - confidence - something you know for sure without any doubt whatsoever.  Faith has no doubt.  You'll know you have eternal life or don't have eternal life.  Your heart will condemn you or confirm your faith.

This is the confidence we have in approaching God.  Ask according to His will he hears us.  If we know he hears us, we 'll know we have what we ask of Him.  Faith is confidence that only the Holy Spirit can give to those who pray.  The prayer in faith will heal them.

To accomplish God's will.  If you know it's His will you have no problem praying for this.  But if your heart condemns you you have no confidence.  You don't know He hears you.

John 3:17 -

You know what it is for your heart to condemn you.  When you pray.  Elders should know especially.  If a sick person calls with a sure conscience without any sin unless there is sin - brought up first - it'll be forgiven if it's confessed.

And what He wants to do.  He won't heal anyone who does not pray in faith or has hidden sin.  Both have hearts that condemn them.  Was it the elders' fault?  We all have to die if we don't live until our Master returns.  Maybe we'll all live till that time.  Maybe not.  Some will die of natural causes - haven't sinned.  When Adam and Eve sinned they started dying.  One reason (a) sick person isn't healed is because they're in sin unconfessed or sinned unto death.  Leads to death because someday you're going to die because you haven't been judging it.  You'll die no matter how much you confess it if it's all ready started (death) in them.  I John 3

Can we pray for such a one?  Sin that leads to death - don't pray for them.  Sin that does not lead to death.  Some that lead to death you better quit or it'll lead you to death.  Others 1 time is all it takes no matter who sees or hears or does not - God hears and sees.

The elders should not pray at all if they know that God does not hear us.  We've got to be spiritual people who know if He hears.  Yashua said "I know you hear me always".  So Lazarus could come forth.  So elders must have confidence and faith knowing for certain that God hears them.  Confidence means the state or quality that God hears them, assurance.  So, if elders are spiritual persons, they will know.

If one know he must say - cannot pray. If you're not treating Messiah and your wife as Messiah treats the edah then we're in the process of dying ourself. It is the word in Spirit John 8:51 that makes us spiritual people.  Live by the Spirit. It's the good news of life. If he's not obedient to this word, you can tell it. He has no river of life flowing from him.  The good news Prayer of faith is the assurance of things we hope for, It is what we don't see not what we do see. I John 3:20 Whenever our hearts condemn us. This is how we know we belong to the truth...&I Jn. 22 a condition of prayer is at the petitioner- the one who's making the request - entreaty- earnest confident request to our Father in the name of our Master, that the petitioner is being obedient to the word of God (That's why not everyone should want to be an elder, your judgement will be worse) The purpose they request this is to accomplish the will of God on earth - Their life must be to further the will of God on earth. I John 5:14 says if we ask anything all to His will - he hears us if our heart's not condemning us - we know he hears us and we have what we ask for, our hearts.

The prayer is answered according to confidence in our hearts.  He knows and hears everything.  Numbers 12:2.  He heard Miriam.  She was the instigator going to Aharon.  I John 3:18 actions and truth.

I Corinthians 4:4 speaks of judgement seat.  "My course is clear"....  but doesn't make me innocent.  The Lord judges.  Don't judge before the appointed time.  We can judge according to conscience but not the final judgement.  My Daddy overlooked many things - He wasn't supposed to judge everything.  (Nations? - like we're supposed to)  He'll bring out the hidden motives then praise will come I John 2:28 4:17 (16) As He was we are.  If we're not like Him who are we like?  You could come to Him or any one of us (Who when we came to Him weren't thirsty) and receive life.

Ps. 19:12 Niv.  Who can discern His errors?  Psalm 139:23-24 way eternal

I Corinthians 11:27 the Lord=Yashua

But if we judge ourselves we won't come under judgement.  If we don't receive His body we'll be mainly self-centered.  No spiritual understanding or discernment.  We don't understand why we have problems with everyone - we're carnal - our mind is in the air, Satan's throne He constantly tells us things - He's still the Lord of your human nature if your spirit is not ruling over it.  That's why there's arguments , misunderstandings, problems, we'll be eating and not waiting on our brothers.  We wouldn't want to eat without our brothers.  Just one example.  They weren't discerning the body.  They didn't understand it.

Judgement in v. 29 is not eternal judgement but a disciplinary judgement as a physical sickness or death.

Leviticus 26:14 The punishment for disobedience for any of us - not discerning the body.

Sickness and death.  He puts His children who do not obey on sickbed.  So as we are God's redeemed children we are disciplined just as our human father disciplines us.  If a child does sins so bad that you'd have to send him away for his destruction.  Other types of sin he can discipline and forgive.  James 5:15 Elders must discern whether they've sinned or not before you pray.  Sin is the only thing that separates one.  The sin may be discerned by friends or close relatives.

Godly sorrow.  By real sorrow they tremble at His words.  Two boys were going to be sent away.  Their parents were going to have to throw the first stone.  Godly sorrow's manifested by repentance because the word is judged.

Secret sin brings open death.  Unless the Spirit speaks to us we won't see the sin only the result.  We have to judge as much as possible.  Clear her or let the judgement come.  We always hold things to ourselves.

Worldly sorrow is self centered sorrow with the consequences of sin.  They would never ...

2 Peter 3:18 Result of confessing all our sins that block the power of God to save.  We'll be growing in grace and knowledge of our god.  Grace upon you - multiplied to you.

Romans 5:2-5.  Stand in grace only by faith upon each of those who have faith.

I am what I am by the grace of God.  2 Corinthians 9:8

Acts 4:33 Abundant grace was upon them all.  No complaint in them, weren't looking at the natural.  We'll experience first resurrection if we're coming to know our Master and sharing in the fellowship of His sufferings.  Paul had no assurance that he'd be raised because he hadn't attained yet.  He did not want to die in his state (even though we think it was impeccable) Phil. 10 Why we don't want to die.  No complaint or murmuring suffering for righteousness sake to attain to first resurrection - 12 + 13.

Don't die until you come to this place.  Paul means here.  Keep yourself alive whatever you do.  Eating his body, drinking his blood is the only way we can do this - teachings coming to Him thirsting - knowing you've attained to resurrection.  Don't let any sin or attitude take you away.  So sin and death are connected I John 5:16 -17Romans 6:23 is not an evangelistic crusade Paul was leading but to those all ready in the Edah.  Wages of sin=death, eternal life.

Sin leads to death.

James 5:16 Sin must be confessed.  Must be known, so they can be forgiven and healed.  Prayers can't be offered in faith to heal.  Elijah was righteous because he knew the will of God.  Prayed with confidence.  Characterized by or proceeded from an intense and serious state of mind.  He knew it was of grave importance.  His heart was not condemning him.

So when elders pray for sick or to save a life the elder's heart must not condemn him.  Whatever does not come from faith is sin.  We sin a lot don't we?  But he who has doubts is condemned if he prays or eats.  If we pray and have doubts we are sinning.  We pray without confidence our heart condemns us.

Their heart might condemn if trying to pray even against God's will.  If a person is sick it may be because a sin is leading them unto death.  Maybe because we're eating wrong inherited problem in us, can be overcome by faith.  What we eat strife, bitterness, turmoil, hatred.  The world's diseases - No one can pray in liberty given in our own heart - faith

Yohannan - Abraham - healed

I John 3:17 such sins as these unless we eat his word we're going to have sin in us.  Double edged sword.  Have to read the word.  Teachings help us ... we always have the word.

Tomime - our children are passionless and dull.  We're ignoring our children

Yoneq - I John 3:21-24 This is how we know we belong to the truth.  If they're passionless then we're not obeying the truth.  I John 3:23 - His commandment.  Those who obey His commandments - live in Him.  If we're not we're just Christians.  Then can't expect anything supernatural to happen.  If we don't know it by the Spirit He gave us then we're all passionless.  If our children aren't bearing good fruit then we aren't living according to His word - our heart is trying to condemn us when we pray.

We have to answer what Tomime said.  Trying to bring out both ends, we're all in sin and unable to judge ourselves or Mary was in sin or the elders are in sin.  If we were to die today, where would we be?  Your soul goes up or down your life.

What's it about our children that they're passionless?  Were Mary's children passionless?

Was he in the Spirit or not?

Anavah - something went off in my heart.  I don't know if that's why Mary died but I know it's true.  I fail in my being lazy.  It's not too late to repent.  Could be part of the problem.  My conscience bothers me when I don't deal with my children.

Tomime - No one knew what his will was.  Don't know because maybe we're dull with our children.

Yoneq - Good to interrupt - hard to hold back if it's the Holy Spirit.

Korem - When you talk about us daily eating and drinking His body and blood - I don't sense we do that daily here - don't have streams of water because we don't devote ourselves to prayer and teachings.  Derush has changed in this way.  How will our children have life if we don't - if there's nothing pouring into them from us.  If elders aren't devoting themselves to His word how can they know if they are connected?  I repent myself because I'm not devoted to His word daily.

Yoneq - Is the day of the table just an ideal or are we devoting ourselves to it?  Are you receiving your daily nourishment - understanding - household leader making sure each one gets his portion.  Rarely miss the table.  Teacher is devoted to preparing himself to share from the word applying to needs in his household.  Can't expect everyone to walk around reading N.T. all the time.  - Get life at table.  His word delivered to us.

He was trying to teach disciples in the boat and with 5000 about faith.  Unless we understand good news there we won't know how to react in storms and how we'll be able to do something without calculating money 1 act of faith will lead us out.  Better to starve physically or spiritually.

Qatan - holds the mirror up to us of where we are.  As far as our concept of our Father is concerned I heard a brother in an elders meeting.  Express faith and let us starve to death if it's His will - I'm afraid to say all right that's what I'm going to do because I don't think anyone will do it.  I think like this that God gives us these lofty ideals then expects us to work our fingers to the bone.  Age of table - always exceptions and they multiply.  We stay up late without faith because we don't have faith to get up in the morning when we've stayed up late.  I do mean we.  I don't know if we could have faith that our God will heal someone if we don't have faith that our God will provide for us if we rarely miss the table (not just financially but in every way)

Caleb - Over the lat few months or most of a year there've been many things happening to me that have shown me I don't know how to love my wife.  Because of that she's suffering in many ways she might not have had to suffer.  I could have been a better head to her.  I've gotten a lot of help from Hakam.  I'm beginning to see the real lack in myself of being able to rule righteously.  I repent for that.  Repenting as I see it before I say anymore.

A long time ago we were in an elders' meeting Hakam called wanting to know what to do because of her cervix before Ashar was born.  Asked elders no word of knowledge or faith.  Called us because he's from Judah.  So he called Yoneq.  Yoneq was able to confirm what was in his heart.  It says I John 2:27 The anointing we have teaches us all things.  We should have been able to confirm Hakam if we'd been hearing from our Father but we didn't have anything.  I agree with Qatan and Korem.  So when we prayed for Mary we spent a great deal of time examining ourselves as much as we knew how.  We prayed with no division, our sins confessed.  Caused me to think we weren't abiding - living in Him so we could pray for her.  I don't know when we stopped hearing from our Master.

Reya - I think I know a lot of reasons our children are passionless and dull - we're not apprenticing them.  Our Father told us to.  Our younger children are motivated.  We don't know what to do with them past a point.  I really desired with all my heart our Father would hear our cry for Mary.  Even to have a cover that works we have to be obedient to His Word.  For me it's been neglect.  Always something else that I've given my energy to.  I was aware of it - I'd been told what to do before we prayed for Mary.  I wasn't doing what I was supposed to do.  Until we can go to our children and say "This is what we have for you, they're going to be passionless."  They don't want to go to Westin(?) to pick vegetables for us.  We don't want to go. - Caleb "We need more adults to direct them down there - we send them to do things we don't want to do ourselves.

Ma Aminah - Ehud's dream.  Saw that our children were already consumed with the world.  Sought to divert them but in that direction they were disfigured.  I read Ahavah teaching.  I was excited - How will Rachel be excited apart from me?  Grace gives us the ability to obey.  This is why we're failing in Island Pond.  We're not receiving what we need.  When others have our children it's not without our communicating a mind to them - participating.

Aharon - I've been trying to figure out what Tomime's saying.  I see them full of passion and not dull.  The lack is in us directing their passion into Yahshua and away from the world.  They're bursting at the seams - we have to lead and satisfy them.

Ma Aminah - We have the ability to satisfy them we just don't believe it.  I was given those children.  If I have the Holy Spirit I have it unless I'm just shrugging it off.

Mileah - grieves me to hear how the restaurant and other things takes priority over our children.  We have to make them our priority.  I see children suffering because parents can't be with them because they're too busy building up the Kingdom.

Yahob - What's the priority?  Evangelism or our children?  Acts 2 Matthew 6 do not be anxious, seek kingdom Acts 3:23

I don't think we can say.  I was washed for not being a man of the word and not loving my wife.

Lisa and Yahannah

Did you hear?  The soul is the mind, the soul and the intellect.

The word was flowing between them.  They were speaking life giving things that encouraged them.  If we don't have those streams we don't know our priority.  It's seeking the kingdom first.  You know when you're in the flesh and in the spirit.  I'll go to death if I don't have life for them no matter how much time I have with them.  Derush took a few minutes.  I took 20 minutes and poured my life.

Isaac - Many of us have put a love for the world in the children rather than the things of God.  What is the Spirit saying?  We've grown dull.  Many aspire few attain because they never acquire a love for the things of God.  If you love Messiah it goes to your wife - the one you love the most then it goes into your seed through them.

Paul wrote we have all sinned and fall short of the glory of God and not one righteous.  I'm guilty.  He wants us to hear what the Spirit is trying to communicate to us.

Ayal - I heard a story years ago about a hen and eggs.  It's really true.  Brooding instinct.  Taught to go to the root of the problem.  We're raised without it.  We have to really work at brooding over each other and our children.  We've had many words.  Not many have read the child training teachings.  What an opportunity to get it all.  Need to be this way because of a salt and care- no care no salt.  The care we would have for each other(?)  To see no one would miss grace.  Priority is to address this from the top down.

Isaac - Older men and women have great responsibility on them those who have older children.  There's an air of resistence toward younger members of the body.  Have to be careful to give heed to every word spoken to us especially if our children are at stake.

Hushai - I'm pierced.  Mary first treasured things in her heart.  Mary is a person who has streams of living water flowing from her.  I'll never forget the love she poured into my children when we lived together.  One time she was in great pain.  I went to her with my three year old daughter.  She couldn't even move.  When she saw Besorah she forgot her pain - reached out and held her and streams of water flowed from her.  Mary's a woman of the word who has supped with our Master.  She's an example of how we should be to our children.  Through her communion she had such great love and bonding with our children and her children.  I'm guilty of all these.  I'm going to change because He's not going to tolerate anymore.  If we lose our children we're all going to die.  But there's hope for them if we are obedient to this.  I'm going to be a man of the word.

Yoneq - Tomorrow if we have the opportunity I want to continue speaking on the cause of human suffering and sickness.  Know that John Mark and Luke need to come before us and need to speak the conviction in their heart.  But we will wait till after we hear more on sickness and suffering.

Our children are most wonderful by world's standards But we have to judge by very high standards.  If we don't attain to it we have lost everything.

To say they're not dull and passionless is not true.  If not we've obtained.  We're only beginning.  Tomime expressed the very heart of our Father.

It's our life that teaches our children not our words.  We're their role models.

I really saw in Luke and John Mark tremble at the word.  Actually trembled and cried out to Yahshua to save them from this thing they both hate.  They trembled for about 20 minutes.  They were thirsty they had sensations of dryness.  If anyone is thirsty is a condition.

Luke - I Repent!

I'm sick of my life Proud - I've defiled them in music then followed my example.  I want to be a support to my parents.  I'm headed for destruction - I want Yahshua to save me.

John Mark - I feel equally as horrible about my condition.  I'm 10 times as horrible as he is he is the way he is because of me.  I'm 17.  I've led them astray - Peter and Luke - Total defilement I've been a leper.  I need to be saved.  I have no right to talk to Andrea like I did today.  I'm just proud - I was very unkind out of anger - I have head knowledge but I've gone on thinking I I had the Holy Spirit but it's all in my head.  - I was afraid.  I could come down here and say wonderful things but I want to be saved.  I'm just a greedy selfish person.  (I didn't want to do dishes the other day.)  I eat candy, I'm destroying my body.  Mary's dying of cancer.  I want to repent of all these things.  I want to do what i need to do to be saved.

Yoneq - We're going to see streams of living water if you're thirsty.  Spirit is good when you can give to others.  Streams of living waters a person must drink in order to have life - fruit of Spirit.  Self control, patience, kindness, you'll have self control won't live by the flesh anymore.  He can't receive the Holy Spirit if we don't have living water flowing from us.  Can we pray for them in faith? If they believe they're dying.

John Mark - I'm going to death - to lake of fire.  I'm my own sovereign - don't want to be

Yoneq - It's up to the body to respond.  Either they're lying or telling the truth.

Luke - I've passed into Yoshia and those boys rock n roll I'm done with that.

Yoneq - have to get rid of the leven.

Sharon - this is so encouraging to me because I've been crying out for our older children.  We say over and over again we don't want them to do it but we keep letting them do it.  They sit in groups talking about their dresses, penny whistles, what they're doing, the cookery.  Why don't we let them sit beside us like Naomi did with her girls and talk to them. 

John Mark - I repent for entering into that conversation.

Yoneq - have to be salt to Priscilla

Tomime - I repent from talking about the past to older children and glamorizing it.

Sameach - What's glamorous is having clean white garments and being committed to Master.  We need to pour the word into them.

It's unspeakable the things these boys have done.  I am amazed they can still cry because they've been waiting 3 weeks to make this right.  They were heading out.  They were going to leave.

Derush - Yoneq said there's no place found in here for you.  You're out.  Unless I saw a supernatural sign I can't believe there's hope for them.  Give them first milk of the word.

Gader - need the milk mother has to give it - we say this when we lay hands on them.  We commit ourselves.

Yoneq - can't wait on someone else to do it.

Sameach - We had a meeting here years ago when my child was young.  I didn't want to be with him.  Now he doesn't want to be with me.  Takes every opportunity to be with someone else.  Everyone of these children said this - they aren't close to their parents - no adults I can talk to.

Yoneq - to Aharon - You evidently don't know what's going on.  We're dull and passionless because we don't know what's going on.

I blew up a mailbox, swore on the Bible - my daddy thought I was a fine child - good Christian boy!  He didn't know.  When I was 13 I was doing horrible things right before his nose.  He trusted in me.  If I were to tell you what these children were saying and doing you wouldn't believe it.  If your child doesn't want you now, remember back to what you were doing when they were 1-4 and needed us.  Every child wears a sign: either my parents loved me and desired me or I was an accident - there wasn't the proper birth control at the time.  I was propagated not procreated.  If you didn't want him in the first place he knows it.  It's communicated to his autonomic nervous system.

Oseh Shalom - They respond to attention.  I fulfilled everything they expected of me quickly.  Put them in a box, they can't escape the weakness they're pegged with.  They're all human beings and need to be forgiven.  I want to change and grow like I want them to change and grow as they have opportunity.  They're just children.  If they irritate you don't direct them, stay out of their life, let someone who loves them direct them.  They're going to become adults one day and have all these bad memories of all these people who knew the right things to say at the right time but without love.  They respond to love.

Yoneq - they respond to Oseh Shalom

Cosenit - These boys aren't - we're just scratching the surface.  There are boys 6 years old who are leading children who are leading children.  I just know we have to be violent toward our children.  Speak to them when we discipline them with passion (not an even tone).  We don't want them to die.  If we're even even even - we can't communicate anything to them but even.

Yonah - I heard tonight the root of our problem tonight - I have not perceived within myself that I am thirsty and gone to the one who can give me streams of life.  I know if I'd gone to my master and asked Him to give me bread he would have given me bread.  I chose it complain instead about my lot and the things in this community.  I was asking to be a source of help instead of part of the problem.  I grew bitter because of the government and the problems not being solved.

I've wrestled wanting to be washed with passion of these things I can't be part of these boys' baptisms without being washed.

The way we talk about our children we're on it in a sense but we haven't yet said our children is a result