Inside Landmark Forum (transcript)

CUT TO SET OF PIECES A CONVICTION

HOST ELISE LUCET

In a few moments, we’ll continue this voyage into the heart of Landmark Education, and witness the rest of it hour by hour.  But after this particularly violent scene, we should discuss what happened with out guests: Brigitte Thelier, who attended a Landmark Education workshop, Pierre, who lived through the same experience and wants to remain anonymous, and Jean-Pierre Jougla, a lawyer and a specialist in brainwashing in cults.  First, I turn to you, Brigitte and Pierre, because I saw you react very strongly during that clip, as if it still hurts to see these images.  

BRIGITTE THELIER, PAST PARTICIPANT, THE FORUM

That’s true, I attended this workshop in ’96.  And seeing Alain Roth again in his chair, really, it makes my stomach turn.  

ELISE LUCET

It hurts you?

BRIGITTE THELIER

It hurts me a lot.  

PIERRE, PAST PARTICIPANT, THE FORUM

It’s very, very difficult to see that again.  I’ve seen even worse.  But this sets the tone well.  They put someone in the hot seat for 50 minutes and destroy them.  

ELISE LUCET

You have also see students break down on stage?  You mean that this is what really happens in these Forums?

PIERRE

Yes, it’s even a little watered down.  It’s worse than that sometimes.  That’s about a mother-daughter problem, we see how abusive it is.  There’s no reason to make a scene.  So, imagine about subjects that are much more painful.  There, they can’t take it.  

ELISE LUCET

And how was it for you, for the 3 days inside this workshop?

BRIGITTE THELIER

Well, I think I’m like anyone else.  I have my share of problems, now and then.  But when I saw some people, like in the clip, how they were able to explain their problems in depth, how he was able to say, “How you’ve ruined your life!   Do you realize the destruction you’ve created around you?  All problems come from you.  But, now I’m going to fix it.  That’s why I’m here, to fix everything.”   I didn’t want to.  I found myself with 200 people that I’d never seen before, with a character who knew absolutely nothing about me.  And even if deep inside I had problems, I didn’t want to air them there.  

ELISE LUCET

Did either of you ever just want to get up and walk out of the room?

PIERRE

No, because at that price you stay until the end.  

BRIGITTE THELIER

Maybe so.  But you’re also being watched closely.  The point is that you just don’t leave the room like that.  

ELISE LUCET

So, Jean-Pierre Jougla, you’re a lawyer and also an expert in brainwashing.  Could it be said that what happened between Alain Roth and Daniele is brainwashing?

JEAN-PIERRE JOUGLA, COMMENTATOR

First I'd like to go back to your question, "Did you ever want to leave the room?" No. They were simply in a state that made it impossible to leave. From the beginning you saw the brainwashing set in motion, through things that seem harmless. For example, confining people for 3 or 4 days in a room with no windows. No sense of time passing.

ELISE LUCET

No bearings?

JEAN-PIERRE JOUGLA

No bearings. And, commitment to a completely objectionable contract.

ELISE LUCET

But a valid one?

JEAN-PIERRE JOUGLA

No.  If you brought it to court, if would be thrown out immediately. But people there don't know that it's invalid, and so are put in a position of inferiority, passivity.

ELISE LUCET

Is it dangerous to put a person through that in front of 200 people?

JEAN-PIERRE JOUGLA

Of course it is.  No one would think of playing around with this. Roth using techniques that could be used in behavioral psychology groups, but where people know it's reciprocal.

ELISE LUCET

Meaning “face-to-face”?

JEAN-PIERRE JOUGLA

Face-to-face, removed from any public confessions. That's where you get into totalitarian methods.

ELISE LUCET

For breaking down the mind?

JEAN-PIERRE JOUGLA

It completely breaks a person down, while preventing most people from realizing it. But brainwashing is just that: it happens without the victim knowing it

ELISE LUCET

In a few moments we will continue our infiltration of Landmark Education, and you will see the surprises that lie ahead.  But you are surely wondering where Landmark Education comes from.  Who created it?  How many students does it have?  Is it a cult, as some speakers have wondered?  Here are the answers to your questions.