Inside Landmark Forum (transcript)
BACK TO SET OF PIECES A CONVICTION
HOST ELISE LUCET
Jocelyne Berthelot is with us. You also participated in the Landmark Forum. And you still volunteer for the organization today. You have watched this show from the beginning. What do you think about everything that has been said?
JOCELYNE BERTHELOT, FORUM GRADUATE, VOLUNTEER FOR LANDMARK
Well, I’m stupefied. I didn’t – All that I saw, on the television, I didn’t see anything like what I went through. For me it was a wonderful experience. And I’m stupefied.
ELISE LUCET
Your involvement in Landmark Education goes back many years?
JOCELYNE BERTHELOT
I took part in a Forum in December 2002. Then I did 4 seminars with them.
ELISE LUCET
Yes?
JOCELYNE BERTHELOT
And then – Well I’m not really a Landmark volunteer. I only volunteered at a Forum, because – it was a good experience for me, so I wanted to relive it.
ELISE LUCET
So, what did they do for you?
JOCELYNE BERTHELOT
Made me feel more at peace with who I am. People talk about self-confidence. It gave me confidence in myself. I came here right away because I thought I could be part of a debate. Well, I would have been until a while ago. I’m not saying that you’re wrong, simply that I didn’t see it.
ELISE LUCET
Mona Vasquez, you’ve been listening for a few minutes. And I see you were listening intently. Your experience is totally different. You spent several years in Scientology. You entered when you were 20 years old. Are there similarities with what you’ve heard so far? Did you go through this?
MONA VASQUEZ, FORMER SCIENTOLOGIST, AUTHOR
Yes, I was also stupefied, I should say. But not in the same way as her. First I’d like to correct one point: I didn’t “enter” Scientology. Someone lent me a book It didn’t contain the word “Scientology.” A friend lent me this very interesting book, So there wasn’t any question of me getting into a movement –
ELISE LUCET
But you spent 7 years there –
MONA VASQUEZ
7 years I didn't see go by. But it's important to point out that the follower doesn't realize he's in a cult. If he did, he'd run the other way. Once he's put under, bamboozled, hypnotized, you're in a sort of haze, and you don't realize it. The follower is the last to realize it. The family takes action, but not the follower. To answer you, I was glued to the video clips. I was a little uncomfortable because I heard all the terminology from Scientology. There was a whiteboard at the beginning with exactly the same words that Hubbard would use, the founder of Scientology. I worked in Denmark at the parent organization of Europe. So I was at the heart of Scientology. So I know the terminology very well, and all of it's the same. On the other hand, I think they may have diversified. If I may –
ELISE LUCET
That’s why you’re here.
MONA VASQUEZ
I think that cults are very quick. As soon as they sense they are being labeled by the press, or in government reports, they rush to diversify, to take another angle.
ELISE LUCET
We’ve obtained a document, obviously kept secret by Landmark Education, from a presentation of the Landmark Forum that you must have attended, Jocelyne. And it’s pretty shocking, because right from page 1, for example, it says that the introduction doesn’t last more than two minutes. On page 2 it says that you have to write key words on the board. On page 16, it says you have to move the chair to the right. On page 22 you have to move the chair to the left. There are even possible answers from participants so the facilitator knows exactly what to say. Did you realize this, Jocelyne?
JOCELYNE BERTHELOT
Um, I’m absolutely stupefied, again. What you said seems impossible because every person, when he goes to share his experience, will say something different. That means it’s not possible that Alain, for whom I have the utmost respect –
ELISE LUCET
- You call him “Alain?” -
JOCELYNE BERTHELOT
Yes, for me he’s a very great person. That there was a plan, um, for his entire seminar, I totally agree. But he can’t plan what he’s going to say, since he doesn’t know what they’ll say. Everyone is different.
JEAN-PIERRE JOUGLA, ATTORNEY, VICE PRESIDENT, UNADFI
He doesn’t care at all what the response is. He take’s a word from what you say, and develops it, embellishes it and makes it personal. Since you’re involved in a situation, you don’t notice. You just saw a clip in which they ask each of you to make two or three family members or friends come to The Forum. For Roth, that means getting new followers who are immediately trusting. They are brought by someone close to them, Dad, Mom, sister, brother. You bring people you don’ hesitate about. This makes it even harder when you realize that someone has pulled a fast one on you. You would bear guilt for the fact that you personally brought people into something that you suddenly discover is negative, or even harmful, for personal development. With that, the mechanism of brainwashing is clinched. The circle is complete, and it will be very difficult for the person in it, who has come to love Alain Roth, to see him as a manipulator.
ELISE LUCET
You seem completely shocked.
JOCELYNE BERTHELOT (Crying)
Yes, yes. I almost want to – I want to cry. But I didn’t see any of that. And, for me he’s a great person. What you’re telling me –
ELISE LUCET
I assure you it’s not meant to cause you any problems Jocelyne, honestly.
JOCELYNE BERTHELOT
Well, it has. I’m fine. We have the right to have problems. But I can’t seem to explain how – I feel like – I’m fifty years old, I feel like I don’t even have half a brain.
ELISE LUCET
No, no. You seem OK.
JOCELYNE BERTHELOT
I – I came here to tell you my experience. For me it’s great. What I’m seeing, I’m floored. I’m having a hard time believing you – Very difficult.
JEAN-PIERRE JOUGLA
Absolutely.
ELISE LUCET
I also want to talk to you all about something you hear both in Landmark Education and Scientology: vocabulary that, for people on the outside, is completely incomprehensible. You’ve heard this of course, Jocelyne. Alain Roth says you have a “racket,” you must be “authentic,” you “create a possibility.” Why control vocabulary like that?
JEAN-PIERRE JOUGLA
There are several reasons. I’m sure Mona could add examples from Scientology. Mainly, it lets them say things that only mean something to those who share this knowledge. It’s a feeling of superiority, because when you use these terms, you know very well that people who haven’t been initiated, can’t understand it.
ELISE LUCET
So now, we continue our voyage. As I mentioned, we didn’t stop at filming the Landmark Education Forum. A second inquiry was conducted at their offices, and chance really helped things when our investigator, Laurent Richard, was asked to become a volunteer for Landmark.